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General:  Waves Native...any good?


13-Jan-02 (Raped)
14-Jan-02 (ma-chan)
14-Jan-02 (b.o.b.)
14-Jan-02 (Tyler Durden)
14-Jan-02 (CyC)
14-Jan-02 (Raped)
14-Jan-02 (Malfunkt)
14-Jan-02 (CoolColJ)
14-Jan-02 (b.o.b.)
14-Jan-02 (CoolColJ)
14-Jan-02 (CoolColJ)
14-Jan-02 (Spectralab)
14-Jan-02 (CoolColJ)
15-Jan-02 (Tyler Durden)
15-Jan-02 (Spectralab)
16-Jan-02 (Tyler Durden)
16-Jan-02 (CoolColJ)
16-Jan-02 (Spectralab)
16-Jan-02 (Spectralab)
17-Jan-02 (TRLH)
18-Jan-02 (new sector foo)
18-Jan-02 (TRLH)
18-Jan-02 (aural)
18-Jan-02 (new sector foo)
18-Jan-02 (qantor)
18-Jan-02 (qantor)
18-Jan-02 (qantor)
18-Jan-02 (TRLH)
18-Jan-02 (CoolColJ)
18-Jan-02 (CoolColJ)
19-Jan-02 (new sector foo)
27-Jan-02 (CoolColJ)


Original Message
Raped.... Waves Native...any good? (13-Jan-02  11:32PM )

- im thinking of getting this software for recording...how good are the plugins for mastering?

Raped

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ma-chan.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (14-Jan-02  12:13AM )

- the only one i really like is the C4. it's dreamy. everyone swears by the rest, but i found them a bit ho hum (they sound pretty good, but i just didn't get blown away by them for some reason). but that C4, phew! it's nice, real nice.

ma-chan

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b.o.b..... Re:Waves Native...any good? (14-Jan-02  01:30AM )

- I think they are slambunctious (so i made up a word..so what?). RenEQ is really great. Easy to see what you are doign to the sound.

The reverbs are great but are computer hogs.

I use mondomod a lot as a cool chorus/flanger thingy on a lot of different sounds. It's really powerful.

ma-chan is totally right about C4. I don't use any other software multiband compressors because this one is so easy to use. Sounds great too.

Last, the L1 limiter is the "bees knees". It's a great quick mastering solution and probably the best software limiter.

The interfaces on everything are well drawn out and easy to use. I don't think you'll find a better set of plugins for the price. Just make sure you have a pretty fast computer because you'll need it when you start plugging these onto all of your tracks because you love them so much.

b.o.b.

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Tyler Durden.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (14-Jan-02  01:32AM )

- How do the compressors/limiters on the Waves rate next to the T-Racks software?

Tyler Durden

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CyC.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (14-Jan-02  01:40AM )

- I can't really compare, but when I spent a lot of time with them, I loved the L1, the supertap delay, the flanger, and the other more exotic effects. The reverbs, compressor, EQ and the rest are all extremely useful too. I can't compare w/ others but I can't find anything bad with the waves.

CyC

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Raped.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (14-Jan-02  01:46AM )

- can you run them in real time before you lay it down to audio?

Raped

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Malfunkt.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (14-Jan-02  02:37AM )

- " can you run them in real time before you lay it down to audio?'

Yes. That is the nature of plug-ins. Waves are excellent... download a demo to see if you like em'.

www.waves.com

Malfunkt

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CoolColJ.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (14-Jan-02  03:28AM )

- C4 is ok, a bit dead sounding though, the rest sound sh*tty to decent to me.

L1 is one of the worst limiters. crunchy sound, loss of bass. Steinberg one is better The EQs all have a digital ringing/harshness in the upper registers. Timeworks Equaliser is far superior. Reverb is good for what it is, quite CPU heavy

I dunno, for the cost of the thing, I don't think its worth it.

In terms of mastering C4 is the only one thing I use for mastering, you can bin the rest. I guess it all depends on what sort of sound quality you want to achieve, and there isn't much choice in terms of plugins.

Your choice in the end, am I the only one that thinks their algos are mediocre? :)

CoolColJ

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b.o.b..... Re:Waves Native...any good? (14-Jan-02  04:12AM )

- Oh oh...i missed the part that says FOR MASTERING!

Many ProTools user throw C4 and L1 on their mastering bus all the time. One advantage of L1 (at least in Protools) is that it does the dithering and bit reduction for you, very useful. It also catches a lot of peaks that some other software limiters miss, in my experiences.

CoolColJ is right in saying that it can get harsh when you push it too hard, but don't push it too hard. Why would you want to take all those dynamics out of your music? If you don't cross that line, it's great.

I also think the Eq is up there with some of the better software Eqs available.

The package is about $800 for 19 plugins. So at about $40 a pop, they are bargains.

So CoolColJ, to answer your question, i think their algos are good and sound way better than any other $40 plugin.

Raped, try the demo!

Link: http://www.waves.com

b.o.b.

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CoolColJ.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (14-Jan-02  04:23AM )

- Problem with L1 is that colours the sound for the worse even when its not doing anything, and that's bad IMO.

Ren EQ sounds thin relative to Timeworks Equaliser. The sound stays nice and full with TW EQ, 64 bit processing makes a big difference. Waves may have had the Pultec designer for consultation when coding the plugin, but in the end its the sound that counts, and TW EQ sounds much better to me, its not perfect though. iZotope Ozone has one of the smoothest digital EQ's I have heard, but its quite coloured in a analog/valvey way, quite Pultec sounding, but without the bass :)

CoolColJ

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CoolColJ.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (14-Jan-02  04:40AM )

- I think the sound of the of the Waves plugins are due to their dither flavour, which certainly make em sound edgey. They all use dither to drop the bits back down to 32bit after processing in native systems.

CoolColJ

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Spectralab.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (14-Jan-02  11:46AM )

- I used to swaer by Waves, but after taking Colin's suggestions and trying out the Timeworks EQ and Steinberg Loudness Maximizer, I'm begining to change my tune. Colin is right, the Steinberg limiter does not color the sound in the that L1 does... now if only he would tell me what he does to keep it from slamming digital zero all the time, I'd be all set ;o)

Ditto Timeworks EQ, I've also been using this lately and I find it to be both warmer and more precise than the Waves EQs. Simple test: boost a single band by 5db or so with a fairly narrow Q setting and sweep the frequency across the spectrum. Do it with both EQs. To me, the Waves have a sort of digital "ringiness" to them whereas the Timeworks sounds a lot smoother...

I still do use C4 a lot, no complaints about it.

As for the others, I use them mostly in a mixing context... MondoMod and MetaFlanger both perform their designated tasks well, Enigma is just plain cool for weird FX, and I still occasionally use MaxxBass to beef up a kick or bass track that needs more help than EQ can offer...

I don't use the Waves reverbs, mostly because they're two CPU intensive. I typically run 10-12 tracks, + inserts and sends on most of them, in a mix... throwing a single Waves reverb in there can easily cut that in half. For that reason, I've struck a compromise, until I get some worthy hardware reverbs to buss out to, of using the TImeworks 4080L. Don't get me wrong, the Waves verbs are great, they just suck too much out of the CPU.

Spectralab

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CoolColJ.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (14-Jan-02  03:12PM )

- C4 is good for making things sound small, tight and smooth, but I like compressors to make things sound big, fatter and punchy. That's one thing I don't like about Waves plugins, they all have this "smaller" sound after processing...

Specralab - one must keep a few secrets to himself ;) Infatc I've given away too much knowledge as it is :P

CoolColJ

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Tyler Durden.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (15-Jan-02  08:50PM )

- How much CPU power are we talking Spectralab?

Tyler Durden

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Spectralab.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (15-Jan-02  10:45PM )

- What, you want me to take a look at the VST meter? I don't know exactly how much, but enough to hinder the number of tracks I usually run...

Spectralab

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Tyler Durden.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (16-Jan-02  04:27AM )

- Sorry - what I meant to ask was how powerful is your computer? How much RAM do you have, etc? I'm curious as to exactly how power hungry these things actually are.

Tyler Durden

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CoolColJ.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (16-Jan-02  05:23AM )

- well I have a P3 868mhtz machine and with Waves reverb running, its about 40-50% cpu off :)

but then again 1.5 gighertz cpus are the norm now, and in 6moths time the top end cpus will be aorund 2.5 gigzahertz

CoolColJ

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Spectralab.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (16-Jan-02  10:07AM )

- oh, I see... I'm running a PIII 800... and my CPU stats running the Waves reverbs are somewhere in the same vicinity as Colin's...

Spectralab

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Spectralab.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (16-Jan-02  10:08AM )

- oh, 512 Ram, b/t/w

Spectralab

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TRLH.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (17-Jan-02  09:11PM )

- It hits my P4 1.7 pretty hard... I'd say about 20-30%

TRLH

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new sector foo.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (18-Jan-02  08:10AM )

- Yeah but P4's are known to have a very weak FPU, so it's not that surprising.

new sector foo

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TRLH.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (18-Jan-02  09:15AM )

- Where did you read this?

TRLH

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aural.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (18-Jan-02  09:53AM )

- TRLH-I think many benchmarks show P3's outperforming P4's.

But I use a 1Ghz AMD.The Waves RVerb costs me about 27%CPU,and the Trueverb only about 16%.

aural

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new sector foo.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (18-Jan-02  09:54AM )

- Everywhere. I read several hardware sites on a daily basis, and have done that for several years, so a really can't give you any reference now. I also have the knowledge to draw my own conclusions based on specs and other info i can gather. This is not nessecarily a bad design choice from intel. Very few applications are limited by FPU execution bandwidth, and the Wave plugs are probably a rare case. I'm not sure that the plugs poor performance on your system is because of this, it's just the best guess i have right now, since i know very little about the plugs internals.

new sector foo

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qantor.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (18-Jan-02  10:12AM )

- I did some measurements with my PIII 800 256ram laptop, WinMe with 87% ressource free. In Sonar, Waves RVerb took 36%, Waves Trueverb 9%, TC 4080L 6% and Cakewalk FxReverb 7%.

qantor

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qantor.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (18-Jan-02  10:19AM )

- This link provides a good document in how to optimize our pc's for audio recording.

Link: http://www.tascam.com/support/faq/pc_optimize/inde ...

qantor

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qantor.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (18-Jan-02  11:04AM )

- Interesting... I've tried the same thing with the demo version of cubase vst... I get the same results... I though it was going to be different.

qantor

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TRLH.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (18-Jan-02  12:06PM )

- Sorry, I should rephrase that.. The Total amount of CPU Waves rverb uses is only 5%-10%, It was late when I wrote that ;)

When I am running Mercury-1,Fm7, and Battery (All with some sort of IFX+EQ) my cpu is at 32-37%. When I add Waves verb to the Master FX section, It only goes up to 40-45%.

Sorry for the mixup..

"I think many benchmarks show P3's outperforming P4's"

When they first came out with the P4's, The P3 *was* outperforming it.. I don't think thats the case anymore. Especially with software being *optimized* for it. (Cubase)

TRLH

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CoolColJ.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (18-Jan-02  04:38PM )

- Hmm well I've seen P4s totally whip Athlons when rendering in Lightwave 7, which is 100% FPU :) SO who knows

CoolColJ

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CoolColJ.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (18-Jan-02  04:39PM )

- I think if the application is P4 optimised, then they should fly on a P4

CoolColJ

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new sector foo.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (19-Jan-02  01:30PM )

- CoolColJ: You're right. LW7 is P4 optimised (uses SSE2 for FPU calculations, which is what intel intended). If you look at 3DSMax, which does similar things but is not P4 optimized, the Athlon spanks the P4. So while P4 is a very good CPU, it gains a lot from optimizations (more than Athlon which is more tolerant to badly written code).

TRLH: That number makes more sense. I was actually a little surprised when you presented your earlier numbers.

Comparisions between P3 and P4 makes little sense. The newest P4 (2.2 Ghz w/ 512K L2 cache) is way faster than P3 in any app. P4 is more DSP-like than Athlon, so in theory, it should be a great processor for native audio. But in practice, most apps are not very well optimized for it. I hope that will change in the future. It is my favourite processor from a technical point of view, but if i where to buy a new computer now, i would probably buy an athlon-based system, due to better value and a better SMP implementation.

new sector foo

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CoolColJ.... Re:Waves Native...any good? (27-Jan-02  02:58AM )

- I downlaoded the beta upgrade for teh C4 and Ren reverb and the reverb CPu usages drops down to 15% on a P3 800! Not bad at all.

CoolColJ

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