Sonic State
Sonic State
Sonic State   News Synth Site Studio Amped - Guitar news Gas Station Samplenet Articles Store
Sonic State The Gas Station
Search:
My Gas Station Help Register Search log_out
Gas Station contact us
Show   day/s
Last
 News Headlines 04/06
 Reviews 04/06
General Last
 DJs 04/06
 General 26/06
 Listen to this 03/01
 Music Theory 04/06
 Newbies 07/07
 Off Topic 26/06
 Remixes 05/01
 Things with Strings 11/01
Samplers + Synths Last
 Akai 12/07
 Alesis 26/08
 Analogue Systems 11/04
 Anything Analog 08/11
 Emu/Ensoniq 25/01
 Korg 26/02
 Kurzweil 25/10
 Modular Synthesis 07/09
 Moog 08/02
 Roland 07/12
 Samplers 02/10
 Waldorf 15/07
 Yamaha 06/09
Software Last
 Cakewalk 10/03
 Cubase 29/12
 Emagic 17/03
 MOTU 04/01
 ProTools 02/03
 Soft Synths [Mac] 01/04
 Soft Synths [PC] 24/04
 Sonic Foundry 14/05
Studio Last
 FX 05/02
 Mixing 02/07
 Monitors 17/06
 Recording 12/01
 Sound Cards 02/04

 
There are currently 0 (or so) members and 66 guests online:
You'll not be able to post until you login

Recording:  holy crap how do I record drums???


22-Jan-04 (Jiggity)
22-Jan-04 (myamoto)
22-Jan-04 (Giant Robot)
22-Jan-04 (Giant Robot)
22-Jan-04 (das1029)
22-Jan-04 (The Sixth Boro)
22-Jan-04 (Giant Robot)
22-Jan-04 (das1029)
22-Jan-04 (myamoto)
22-Jan-04 (The Sixth Boro)
23-Jan-04 (SpeckO)
23-Jan-04 (Giant Robot)
27-Jan-04 (Jiggity)
27-Jan-04 (SpeckO)
27-Jan-04 (SpeckO)
27-Jan-04 (SpeckO)
27-Jan-04 (Giant Robot)
27-Jan-04 (Jiggity)
27-Jan-04 (SpeckO)
27-Jan-04 (DjXSoundz)
27-Jan-04 (The Real MC)
28-Jan-04 (Dr. Whammo)
29-Jan-04 (Giant Robot)
29-Jan-04 (Dr. Whammo)
29-Jan-04 (Jiggity)
29-Jan-04 (Giant Robot)
29-Jan-04 (das1029)
29-Jan-04 (The Real MC)
29-Jan-04 (Dr. Whammo)
29-Jan-04 (Giant Robot)
29-Jan-04 (The Real MC)
30-Jan-04 (Dr. Whammo)
30-Jan-04 (Giant Robot)
30-Jan-04 (Dr. Whammo)
30-Jan-04 (Giant Robot)
30-Jan-04 (das1029)
30-Jan-04 (Dr. Whammo)
30-Jan-04 (Giant Robot)
30-Jan-04 (Giant Robot)
03-Feb-04 (Jiggity)


Original Message
Jiggity.... holy crap how do I record drums??? (22-Jan-04  12:37PM Edited:10-Nov-05  07:29PM)

- tips appreciated!

Jiggity

| to pump | top of page |

myamoto.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (22-Jan-04  12:54PM )

- look up recording drums on the sound on sound website- there's loads of information there

If you're going to be doing a lot of drums maybe think about investing in a set of drum mics, although these aren't essential

Link: http://www.soundonsound.com

myamoto

| to pump | top of page |

Giant Robot.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (22-Jan-04  01:47PM )

- There are many techniques, it really depends on the sound of the room you're recording in and the style of music and how dense the arrangement is.

I prefer using as minimal a setup as possible, but I also prefer sparse arrangements and have a great sounding (and large) room to record drums in. If the room is small and mostly untreated then close micing will be an unfortunate necessity, esp. for a dense mix. So you could put up a pair of condensors as overheads and close mic the rest of the drums. You might try setting up the OH's behind the drummer and getting them as close in as you can without getting in his way, maybe ear height, maybe shoulder height. There are a few rules to follow when setting up OH's and close mics but I think with a little internet research you'll find that info. OH's are critical btw. You might be able to get away with two of your condensers tight in as overheads, one condenser for FOK, and close micing the snare and kick and whatever else you have the mics for with the appropriate dynamic mics, though this wouldn't be optimal.

I'm hoping you have access to SM-57's as well? Close mic the snare with one for sure, try 'em on other things. I think esp. considering the condensers you are using that dynamics will be very helpful. RE-20 or D112 for kick.

Hate to say it also but the best way would be to book time at a studio that has all the right mics (yours aren't so suited for drums) and an engineer to set them up, so you can watch and learn what he does and get decent sounding drums in the process.

Giant Robot


| to pump | top of page |

Giant Robot.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (22-Jan-04  02:28PM )

- In case the terminology is confusing-

OH: Overheads- may not actually be placed over the drummer's head, but lower (or higher). Over the kit or farther back or forward. Used to get a balanced image of the kit, usually 2 mikes panned stereo or summed to mono (watch phase with 2 mikes), or 1 mono mic. I prefer mono drums myself, but most (80% ?) of people like 2 mikes in stereo. Considered the most important component of drum miking.

FOK: Front of kit semi-ambient mike, usually placed 3-8 feet in front of the kit. Condensor or ribbon.

Close micing: Just what it sounds like, mikes right up close to individual components of the kit. Dynamics here are a must. Put 57's on everything if you have nothing else! They will work great actually. Use for tightening and giving the drums some meat and punch because OH's and ambients may sound flubby or washy in the wrong room or with some mics (cheap large diaphragm condensors!) or in a dense mix. Again watch phase in the placement of all mics.

This thread maybe be helpful as well, btw.

Link: http://www.recording.org/cgi-local/ubb/ultimatebb. ...

Giant Robot


| to pump | top of page |

das1029.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (22-Jan-04  04:51PM )

- Definetly get some Shure SM57s. They aren't nicknamed the "workhorse" for nothing. Those things sound good with everything, including acoustics drums and percussion instruments. Buy a couple good SM57s from a pawn shop, or even eBay for cheap.

Also, if you haven't already, I would suggest that you set some money aside to invest in a nice kick drum mic. As these are specifically designed to capture the nuances of the bass frequencies in a bass drum.

There are several different elaborate and minimal setups for recording drums. The question you need to answer is how much isolation do you want of each drum when recording? I've seen setups in studios that have used as many as 8 different seperate mics for every tom, the snare, kick, cymbals, hihats, overheads, a room mic, and something else. Then I've seen setups where a person had only a kick drum mic, a SM57 for the snare, a SM57 between the 2 toms and an overhead, that's it.

The only difference with more mics is that you will have more say in tailoring the recorded sound from the kit. Hence, 6 or 8 mics could go to 6 or 8 audio tracks in your DAW to process later, verses 4 mics for an entire kit that might have the hihat bleeding into the snare, or the kick bleeding into the toms.

But, all of that is subjective, because depending upon your taste, that might be the sound you're looking for. You also have to consider mic placement, so that you don't experience phase problems.

Hey, just to let you know if you didn't realize it before, micing drums is an art form in itself.

DAS

das1029

| to pump | top of page |



The Sixth Boro.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (22-Jan-04  07:30PM )

- Hey Jig. das is right.

"Hey, just to let you know if you didn't realize it before, micing drums is an art form in itself."

My best advice to give you is experiment. If you have some extra time on your hands and a free person that can decently play drums, just go into the studio and play around. Use all different setups and positions until you find the one with the sound your after. Also, while doing this, make a mental note (or even written) to keep for future reference so you know which mic setup will give you which sound. Good luck.

The Sixth Boro

| to pump | top of page |

Giant Robot.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (22-Jan-04  07:33PM )

- Good advice from das. I've done mic setups that have been pretty much 1 overhead and one FOK mic and that's it. But that was for really sparse open sounding jazzy music and was in a good room. For rock or anything less open you'll probably want to close mic everything + overheads, otherwise the drums won't be able to punch through the mix. Spot on advice too about using many tracks so as to be able to pick the ones that the mix needs.

The thing to realize too is that some mics that are good for kick will also be great for other tasks- the RE-20 for example in addition to being a good kick mic is the bomb for some male vox and an industry standard for broadcast and voiceovers. So you aren't spending your cash on a one-trick pony.

Oh yeah, and do get some 57's. You'll need them for guitar cabs too and tons of other tasks, even vox in some circumstances.

Giant Robot


| to pump | top of page |

das1029.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (22-Jan-04  08:39PM )

- Ditto with the great advice everyone else gave. Oh yeah, almost forgot one of the most important things.

Make sure you get your drums tuned. If you don't know how to, learn from a pro somewhere. It can really make the difference between crappy drums sounding good, and expensive drums sounding crappy.

And I understand that some people look for certain effects when recording. but trust me on this one. Just because drums don't have a continuous chromatic scale like a piano doesn't mean they're not supposed to be tuned. Trust me, it will make a difference. While you're at it, it might not hurt for you to just sit down with a professional drummer/percussionist and learn the ins and outs about the drum. The different types of heads, sticks, tensions, body material, etc. I only know about this stuff because drums were my 1st instrument at 4 years old. I'm definetly not a pro drummer, maybe semi-pro, but the knowledge I have makes a huge difference in your type of situation.

DAS

das1029

| to pump | top of page |

myamoto.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (22-Jan-04  08:44PM )

- "Make sure you get your drums tuned. If you don't know how to, learn from a pro somewhere. It can really make the difference between crappy drums sounding good, and expensive drums sounding crappy"

our drummer has a decent kit (pearl export)- the first day we had in a proper studio the producer spent a good couple of hours tuning the drums and the difference was astonishing. It sounded great. Something I'd love to learn.

myamoto

| to pump | top of page |

The Sixth Boro.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (22-Jan-04  08:46PM )

- Yup, tunning your drums before recording will make a world of a difference. Make sure that is done. And, again Good Luck!

The Sixth Boro

| to pump | top of page |



SpeckO.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (23-Jan-04  03:37PM )

- Some bands are lazy. Quite a few engineers I know are well adept @ tuning drums. They feel they have to be, given the drummer often doesn't know or care about it. No digs @ drummers, I'm kinda one, my bro for 19 yrs....love 'em like I love skin.

SpeckO

| to pump | top of page |

Giant Robot.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (23-Jan-04  04:44PM )

- Well, nobody was making digs at drummers... but now that you mention it...

Tuning a drumset is also an art, just like miking one. And there are very few drummers who have the ear to do it right. Of course it stands to reason that those are usually the only drummers who can play well enough to record... Reminds me of a conversation that I had with my bro- talking about recording live drums for this project- and he looks at me and says 'well, what drummers around here are good enough to want to record?'

And you know- he was right, between the two of us we are on speaking terms with over thirty drummers and of those about 5-6 or so are career session drummers- and there was only one guy we could think of that we'd want to have if we were doing our own music. One. He does drum loop libraries btw for I forget which company.

Drummers suck, and that's a fact of life. Even the best ones. Jiggity, keep a few beers in the fridge, because if the drummer sets up and it doesn't sound too good in the room (and the drummer's playing style and the resulting sound is the most important factor) rest assured that you may want to hang yourself at the end of the session and will need a few cold ones to mellow yourself out. I mean learning to mike a kit is hard enough but the drummer himself won't make it any easier. I'd say 70-80% of the right sound is dependent on the drummer himself hitting the damn things and the rest is up to you.

Btw my best friend is a drummer but I'll be damned if I let him play on anything I do.

Giant Robot


| to pump | top of page |

Jiggity.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (27-Jan-04  12:28PM Edited:10-Nov-05  07:31PM)

- You guys have been immensely helpful- infact, I'm going to print this all out. Thanks again- I'll be back to share my experimentations and outcomes. I've heard a lot about those Shures, actually looking for a couple to buy already.

Jiggity

| to pump | top of page |

SpeckO.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (27-Jan-04  12:51PM )

- "Tuning a drumset is also an art, just like miking one. And there are very few drummers who have the ear to do it right."

Giant, this is prob why the other enigneers find they usually end up doing it :).

As far as digs at drummers go, well, I reckon we've/they've copped enough! We need to now begin to turn our attention to piano accordian players. All the dumb, deluded piano accordian players.

I'm sorry.

SpeckO

| to pump | top of page |

SpeckO.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (27-Jan-04  12:52PM )

- I love piano accordians.

SpeckO

| to pump | top of page |



SpeckO.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (27-Jan-04  12:54PM )

- really..........

Link: http://home.hiroshima-u.ac.jp/cato/Accodtnc.GIF

SpeckO

| to pump | top of page |

Giant Robot.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (27-Jan-04  01:16PM )

- When I visit my drummer friend's house I always start knocking slowly, then speed up. The irony is that not that I didn't have to explain to him the classic drummer joke but that he doesn't always realize what I am doing...

Oh, and Jiggity I'm certain you know this already but keep the beer away from the drummer! Funny how most drummers can't tune a drumset (which disqualifies them completely as competent in my eyes) but have some sort of uncanny spidey sense that lets them know when there's alcohol in the vicinity... be warned!

Giant Robot


| to pump | top of page |

Jiggity.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (27-Jan-04  01:35PM )

- Ha! We need another drummer joke thread.

Jiggity

| to pump | top of page |

SpeckO.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (27-Jan-04  01:51PM )

- Bring it on...I can handle it. I'm only a part time drummer.

SpeckO

| to pump | top of page |

DjXSoundz.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (27-Jan-04  05:00PM )

- Okay, Jiggity i'm in the same bind. Only i'm limited to : SHure KSM27, 2 Beta 58a's, Two SM58s and a SM57 but i might be able to borrow one or two more 57s

does anyone know how i might place these mics?

DjXSoundz

| to pump | top of page |



The Real MC.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (27-Jan-04  08:14PM )

- I can't believe nobody mentioned compressors.

When you process drums through compressors, this is where you separate the men from the boys. Percussive sounds are the acid test of compressors. My personal fave is the JBL/UREI 7110. The Alesis 3630 didn't cut it, nor did any of the Behringers.

I'm not a fan of SM57s on toms - I've had great results on the Audix mics or the Audio Technica drum mics. A studio fave for toms are the Sennheiser 421s.

I've had REALLY good results using a Sennheiser 441 for overhead. It is not a condenser but it has full 20hz-20Khz bandwidth and the cymbals & hihats sound REALLY crisp.

The Real MC

| to pump | top of page |

Dr. Whammo.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (28-Jan-04  03:04PM )

- when you mic snares, be sure to put one UNDER the drum, to get the rattle...

in fact I prefer to use just one 57 under the snare, and let the OH mics take care of the rest

make sure to get a good stereo pair for the OH (i prefer mid size diaphragms), RE-20 on the toms, D112 on the kick and you are set

also heard good things about the new Blue powered dynamic for drums

the less mics the better - unless you are going experimental... then you can get crazier

but the less phase issues to work through, the better

Dr. Whammo


| to pump | top of page |

Giant Robot.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (29-Jan-04  01:26AM )

- >>also heard good things about the new Blue powered dynamic for drums

You mean the Blue Ball? I've heard nothing but bad things myself...

MC you're right about compression but since I don't normally track drums with compression I thought I'd not say much about it. I can't imagine the Alesis 3630 or anything B*ringer cutting it on anything, much less drums. Tracking drums with compression can be cool but I'd rather not commit so early in the process myself. Man, I've still got to get a Senn 441, I need one of those! Or two.

Giant Robot


| to pump | top of page |

Dr. Whammo.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (29-Jan-04  09:59AM )

- thats strange... I heard it adds a nice quality to a kick drum

havent used one meself tho

Dr. Whammo


| to pump | top of page |

Jiggity.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (29-Jan-04  12:22PM )

- MC, I don't have a compressor right now, but might be getting ahold of a RNC pretty soon. Is RNC good for drums?

Jiggity

| to pump | top of page |



Giant Robot.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (29-Jan-04  02:09PM )

- RNC is great for punching up drums if you set it right (speaking as a former owner of two RNC's. I sold them because I have the bases covered with my other compressors but recommend them 100%).

Giant Robot


| to pump | top of page |

das1029.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (29-Jan-04  03:43PM )

- "- I can't believe nobody mentioned compressors. "

Yeah, that's true, you could record drums with compression, but me personally I like to record acoustic instruments like that 100% dry. In fact, 95% I record any type of audio track dry, with the exception of vocals (sometimes).

My reason being that if you have a really good signal to begin with in your recording process, then you've already achieved 50% of the sound you're looking for in the end. Mixing will then be a breeze. Compression really does help drums a lot, but the only thing you have to consider is that if you print compression to the drums at first, but later don't like that sonud with the overall mix, then you're stuck no matter what.

But that is very true, compression does seperate the men from the boys, so to speak, you just have to really know how to use it. And if you're not sure, then the safest bet is to record everything dry and process in the post.

DAS

das1029

| to pump | top of page |

The Real MC.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (29-Jan-04  03:48PM )

- Check out the live recordings of my band in the link below - under "Feeling Lucky". That's the Senn 441 at work.

Link: http://www.mojoboogieband.com/html/music.html

The Real MC

| to pump | top of page |

Dr. Whammo.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (29-Jan-04  04:03PM )

- compression is neccessary, though most of the time I use them as limiters - which are especially helpful when tracking drums, brass, wild singers... or anything peaky for that matter

if you are using a pro console with dedicated compression for each channel, its probably a given that you will put them to use every time you record (i do for almost everything)... but again, its not compressing per se, just shaving off some of the crazier peaks

Dr. Whammo


| to pump | top of page |

Giant Robot.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (29-Jan-04  05:32PM )

- Cool, Mike. What instruments are you using the 441 on?

Re: compression- I'm with DAS. Most of the time I print straight dry. With the exception of vocals and bass, sometimes I'll run them through the Purple or MU when tracking, and have that be the only compression they get.

An example of why you shouldn't compress drums came up on this album I mastered yesterday- they smashed the OH's really hard when tracking and then when mixing they smashed them yet again- both times going for a pumping effect, but the problem was that even though the pumping was just what the mix needed, on the really hard cymbal hits you could hear it when each compressor clamped on and then let go- kind of a double pumping sound. Granted, probably the mixer and the tracking engineer couldn't hear what was going on as well as me because of moniotoring but I think if the tracking engineer hadn't compressed then the cymbals would have been smoother when being compressed in the mix. YMMV, but that's one reason why I say squash in the mix stage. I mean there's no way that you'll know exactly how you want to fuck with the envelope of the drum sound too much until you hear things in the context of the full mix anyway.

I find that with proper gain staging no limiter is needed when tracking unless the singer or musician is way out of control dynamically. Most of my clients are professional enough that things are under control. I may have mentioned this before but I track with plenty of headroom.

Giant Robot


| to pump | top of page |



The Real MC.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (29-Jan-04  10:14PM )

- In those live mp3s, the 441 is the overhead for the drums. All the lows/mids are rolled off to pick up cymbals and percussion. Toms and snare have individual mics, they're Audio Technicas. There was no compression on the drums, didn't have the 7110s at the time.

I have used the 441 to great effect on horns, and acoustic and nylon string guitars. Sometimes I'll use it on my vocal depending on the effect I want but it's not the first mic I reach for to record vocals. The 441 sounds more natural to my ears than a condenser on acoustic instruments.

We once shared a 1st night new year's gig with a professional classical guitar player with nylon string guitar. Now is that a mismatch or what? Prior to the gig, he wrote the committee complaining of the lineup with us. At the show, I whipped out the 441 for him and he was all smiles. The gig went extraordinarily well and he wrote the committee with tons of praise for the support we gave him. We earned some extra $$$ for that karma earning move :)

Yeah, I don't record drums WITH compression - I PROCESS them on playback. My original post said "process" but I didn't clarify "on playback".

The Real MC

| to pump | top of page |

Dr. Whammo.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (30-Jan-04  09:17AM )

- i prefer to track as hot as possible, even on 24bit

Dr. Whammo


| to pump | top of page |

Giant Robot.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (30-Jan-04  11:39AM )

- >>i prefer to track as hot as possible, even on 24bit

Why? You like the sound of an overloaded mix bus and clipped plugins?

Giant Robot


| to pump | top of page |

Dr. Whammo.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (30-Jan-04  11:55AM )

- no that would be pretty fucking stupid now wouldnt it?

in case you forgot, tracking and mixdown are seperate procedures

I prefer to have the most bits available during mixdown (instead of 16 or 18 or even 20), so I can put the faders to good use...

BTW - engineering technique is a personal thing... your way is not the only way, or the best way

Dr. Whammo


| to pump | top of page |

Giant Robot.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (30-Jan-04  12:30PM )

- Every fader move is a digital calculation, which degrades the signal. It might be subtle on soloed tracks, but the cumulative effect on a full mix is something I'd rather avoid. I hear it as a narrowing of the soundfield and the sound getting boxier. Kind of what people are always complaining about when they talk about digital sound. So I track more or less at the level I use while mixing.

And I'm sure you already know this but bit depth = dynamic range. And since you're admittingly limiting the signal while tracking (not something I'd want either since limiting is quite audible even at 1-2 db- nasty) you can kiss the being able to play with most significant bits goodbye since they are limited. Most of the audble signal just happens to reside in the bits you are limiting and you don't need to anyway because..

unless you drop below your convertors' noise floor and truncate the bottom end of your signal you can simply push the fader up and still have the same amount of 'bits' represented anyway that you would have if you had tracked hotter. Since the noise floor of your analog gear is much higher than that of your convertors it's not something to worry about at all with 24 or even 20 bit.

I'm not going to argue this anymore because it has been done to death on every recording forum, and suffice it to say that what you call my way is standard practice. If you want to stay with your methods by all means... Just like if your console has compression on every channel you may feel obligated to use it despite the fact that just because something is there doesn't mean that using it is the best thing for the mix... But if your clients (assuming you have clients) start going elsewhere because your competitors have better sound...

Giant Robot


| to pump | top of page |



das1029.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (30-Jan-04  02:33PM )

- Oh I definetly "track" as hot a siganl as I can get, without clipping or distorting the signal. If you don't then in the end you're going to compensate it in the post-mix. Which however you do that, whether it be compression or "riding the faders", you will inherently add some noise to the audio.

If it's right from the get go, you don't have to fix it later. That's been my experience as well. But whatever works for you works. I just really like having a nice clena full signal. That way whatever post processing you have to use it won't alter the final mix as much as if you didn't have a full signal.

DAS

das1029

| to pump | top of page |

Dr. Whammo.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (30-Jan-04  03:12PM )

- robot, you can keep all your air and room noise and all that shit

since you are convinced of your superiority, you turn this discussion into a game of one-up-manship that you believe you have already won

congrats, now fuck off

Dr. Whammo


| to pump | top of page |

Giant Robot.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (30-Jan-04  08:24PM )

- Oh, that's really nice, Whammo. Thing is, I can back up my my viewpoint with as much evidence as you'd care to read. It's not one-upmanship, it's simply knowledge that will make your mixes better if you care to use it. I mean, it's really simple.

One more thing: When you drop your faders it degrades the audio because the software must assign new numeric values to the the waveform data. When you push your faders up, you are still left with the original 24 bit numerical values- the software simply adds zeroes to the end of the signal.

DAS, that's interesting. Personally I've found that I use less post processing when I track at lower levels. My setup is calibrated so that when I run something through analog outboard or whatever, the output from the DAC's are hitting the analog gear in their sweet spot. I've found too that most analog gear doesn't function as well at levels that approach digital 0, and that includes the analog components in DAC's and ADC's too. By gain rides and compression I assume that you mean reducing dynamics, and low tracking levels really don't mean that you need to reduce dynamics in any way that I can see.

I'm not sure what you mean by a nice clean full signal, I mean supposing you track an instrument that has a 60 db dynamic range (which takes 10 bits to represent), and your convertors have a 90 db dynamic range above their noise floor (24 bit is theoretically 144 db of dynamic range but the real world says differently. 90 db = 15 bits so I'm giving a worst case senario). So when you track it at say, -2dbfs you have 5 bits of noise under the signal. Supposing you drop the level 6 db. 1 bit more or less = 6db. Now you have 4 bits of the noise represented but the full 60 db of signal is as 'full' as it was before, assuming proper gain staging. So you are using the same amount of bits, no more, no less. Drop it another 6db. Whew, 3 bits of needless noise under the signal and you have a full 14 db of headroom to work with. And the full 60 db of signal is as clear and full as it was before, probably clearer since now you aren't overloading your analog components.

The point is, when you limit while tracking you are using less bits since the dynamic range is reduced. You're simply bringing the noise floor up. When you drop you faders you degrade the sound. When you pull them up you don't. And... most if not all your analog gear is calibrated to operate at 0db VU, which if you calibrate your AD inputs correctly is at a level that is well below tickling digital 0 (-14 to -18dbfs).

In the end though you guys can work the way you want to but I find that when proper gain staging is used the results are not subtle, the sound just opens up and is really nice. And sure, your final mix will be quieter (turn up your monitors!) but that's a good thing. Ask any mastering engineer how much headroom he'd prefer. If you want links, fine I can give you links. If you want insults... go to recpit.prosoundweb.com and post the question in Mixerman's forum. If you want a better sounding mix... give it a try. Just check your convertor's manual so that you are making sure that the analog levels are calibrated correctly for your analog gear.

Giant Robot


| to pump | top of page |

Giant Robot.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (30-Jan-04  08:41PM )

- On second thought, go here and read Nika's posts very carefully. So much cool knowledge for the taking! My explanation in my post is an oversimplification, I admit.

Link: http://duc.digidesign.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number ...

Giant Robot


| to pump | top of page |

Jiggity.... Re:holy crap how do I record drums??? (03-Feb-04  12:29PM )

- Well, we finished the first song- I'll try to find a place to host the mp3 (any volunteers???). It's indie rock, which isn't my favorite, but the song is actually very cool. We recorded in one of the guitarist's attic!

As it turns out, the drummer had his own Audix mics. I have to admit, the OH condensers were great, but the dynamics on the kick bass and snare sucked ass. The kick wouldn't kick and the snare only lightly popped- no tone whatsoever- EQ helped a little but even at that point there was no way to make the snare sound like a snare and the kick to really hit hard.

I don't get it because the two miked toms sounded really good.

After a bunch of post recording compression and EQ I finally got the drum track to sound decent. All in all the kick sounds ooook, and the snare is still weak except in the fills...

Here was the mic setup:

Two condensers overhead

Dynamics clipped to the snare, toms. Toms with a slight stereo spread. The snare was tuned pretty high.

Dynamic placed slightly inside the bass drum hole.

The OHs went through the Blue Tube, and the dynamics went straight to the mixer.

What the hell went wrong???

Jiggity

| to pump | top of page |


You'll not be able to post until you login



 
Copyright Sonic State Ltd. 1995-2014. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part in any form or medium without express written permission from Sonic State is prohibited.

About us - Ad enquiries - Contact - Privacy Statement